Made You Think –– The Qur'an

Show: [[Made You Think]]

Speaker(s): [[Nat Eliason]] [[Neil Soni]]

Topic: The Qur'an

"The truly good are those who believe in God and the Last Day, in the angels, the Scripture, and the prophets; who give away some of their wealth, however much they cherish it, to their relatives, to orphans, the needy, travelers and beggars, and to liberate those in bondage; those who keep up the prayer and pay the prescribed alms; who keep pledges whenever they make them; who are steadfast in misfortune, adversity, and times of danger. These are the ones who are true, and it is they who are aware of God."

Learning from the source material

• Translation and footnotes:
  • Explaining why he chooses to interpret things certain ways, what other people interpret, provides a lot more context. Light history of the Arabian peninsula, etc.
• Modern interpretation of ancient books affected by old translations.

The flaw in education systems that don't teach bigger history, but rather limit history of the country their in. This causes blind-spots in our understanding of history.

Interpretations and translations

• "The weak" vs "Those who have swords but put them away" has completely different meanings.
• Jesus walked "on" the water vs. "by" the water, and the different meanings they have.

Politics in translation

• If you can interpret a phrase in multiple ways, how you feel about the book/religion will change how you interpret it.
  • The idea of Jihad: internal struggle vs. physical war.
  • It can mean a religious war limited to the context of when the book was written, or a war that has to be conducted all times.
• You can make a text say what you want to say - which is why you need to go to the source material as much as possible.
• Not even, you can read into what you want but other people will read into it how they want.

Christianity used to militarize people.

Nationalism, communism, socialism: "i support the values of the place" vs "i need to protect this place from outsiders".

Inter-subjective myths, and how people use violence to justify them.

Discussions around violence and Islam today

• Is Islam a religion of peace militarized for bad use vs a religion violent at its roots?
• Each side is talking over each other, and unwilling to listen to the other.

We call them religions, though it's less about the myths and stories, but Abrahamic religions seem to be all encompassing: legal codes, prescribing human behaviour etc.

• Therefore, the weariness: it's not freedom of religion, but also the religions mandate that you impose them on people. [[MYT - Sapiens]]
  • It's an entire belief system.
  • What if we were to go to another country and say "business and money are non-existent"? There are beliefs that are fundamental to us right now. We would try to impose our beliefs on communities that don't believe in them, especially because we think they're better, etc.
  • This belief system is not compartmentalized as just a religion. Islam and Christianity seem to be more prescribing how to behave/act as a human being and broad-spanning - and that's what causes tension, especially politically, between people. That's what makes it hard for people to assimilate as well.

History of Islam and the Mohammad era.

• In Mecca and Arabia, the religion of the region was polytheism and tribal religions.
  • People believed in a chief God, Allah, and saw other deities as a mediator between him and individuals.
  • In less than a decade, the whole Arabian peninsula accepted Islam and united tribes that had been warring for generations. That's even faster than democracy's growth in the US. That's virality at it's peak, in an era without the internet.

Qur’an is considered the direct words of God, while the Testaments are interpretations of its prophets. The Quran writing style: God speaking directly to you vs a story about God in third person.

• In Christianity and other religions, they are stories about God.
• The Qur'an has no "interpretation". It has an extra level of seriousness to it, it's almost God is speaking to you. There is no mediator between the narrator and the "individual".

What made Islam a change for polytheistic tribes is that the deities were not recognized as Gods, the prophets of Abrahamic religions are true prophets as well but they aren't the true prophet.

Mohammad was supposedly illiterate.

• Mohammad memorized the Qur'an and just spoke it. "True" Islamic scholars memorized the entire thing, and never wrote it down. The manuscript was compiled later.
  • This makes you think of what may have changed in translation, and what motives did the compilers or translators have?
  • There's contradictions in the Qur'an, too, when you read the entire thing in one go. He was having all these revelations over a decade, and a lot of it was influence from what was happening in the region.

There were lots of wars for power in the region at the time. Mohammad was a religious leader for the region, in a way. Polytheist leaders saw Islam as a threat to their power.

• One could wonder, if you're being challenged as being the mouth-piece for God, it would be convenient to have a revelation from God when push comes to shove and people question whether to listen to you.

Qur'an is divided in 114 sections called Suras (almost like chapters). The longest are at the beginning. The shorter ones more to the end, are more repetitive and could be even single lines.

The earlier Suras are very accepting of other religions and beliefs.

• First part of the Quran is very friendly with People of the Book (Hebrews and Christians).
  • You should let them believe, and it's fine to marry women or eat their food, etc.
• The chief conflict was against the Polytheists. As long as you believe in God, you could interact with them.
• The conflict shifts as the book goes on.
  • Cracks between the three Abrahamic religions. Judaism: we are waiting for the Son of God. Christianity: Son of God is Jesus. Islam: no, Son of God is Mohammed, or all the prophets together are related to God, but not a direct son.
  • "Most of the things they say are right, they're just wrong about Jesus". In a lot of ways, the interpretation of the prophet is the main distinction and the conflict of the three religions.

The use of the word "We".

• To show the infinite nature of God/"Him" - using the plural version of the pronoun to refer to the self.
• There are also Angels, etc - that could be another reason to using We. "Collective supernatural beings affecting life on Earth"

Polytheism absorbed and organized in Angels and God hierarchy.

• They are still here, but they are not the supreme God.

From [[Sapiens]]: Christianity absorbed and on-boarded other religions by Sanctification of their deities. This was a way to get Polytheists on board, and absorb them into their religion/have them be compliant. Example: Saint Brigid, the Celtic goddess in Ireland.

Islam in India.

• Converting Hindus to Muslims with tax incentives.
• If you've got a Hindu Pantheon, how do you get your religion to spread?

Sections:

Acceptance of Jewish and Christians. The need to declare oneself Muslim, but no need to consider oneself Muslim in private.

‘Produce your evidence, if you are telling the truth.’ In fact, any who direct themselves wholly to God and do good will have their reward with their Lord: no fear for them, nor will they grieve.

• Anyone who dedicates themselves to the whole worship God, will make it to heaven and be rewarded for it, regardless of whether you call yourself a Muslim, Jew or Christian.
• Expecting evidence.
  • Double standard when requiring for evidence. Challenging other believes asking for evidence.
  • People need evidence to challenge own beliefs, but don't require it to trust them, word of God is enough. What postmodernism says vs what it is.

Continuation from Obsidian:

If you hold a belief so strongly, people need evidence to challenge it, but you don't need evidence to believe it. The word of God is enough.

There is what the Qur'an says, there is what practicing Muslims do and there is also what Islamic states say and do. They can all be very different things.

Reconciling differences in the Qur'an from the beginning to the end.

• The later passages are written more recently, and therefore are superior. Or what's the hierarchy of the passages and beliefs?
• Is it just subjective/selective?
• This is a statement of the Truth about which they are in doubt: it would not befit God to have a child. He is far above that: when He decrees something, [[He says only, ‘Be,’ and it is]]
• ‘God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him: that is a straight path.’ But factions have differed among themselves. What suffering will come to those who obscure the truth when a dreadful Day arrives! How sharp of hearing, how sharp of sight they will be when they come to Us, although now they are clearly off course! Warn them [Muhammad] of the Day of Remorse when the matter will be decided, for they are heedless and do not believe.
  • You have to read between the lines there, but it almost says that Christians who believe that Jesus is the Son of God will go to Hell.
  • How is this reconciled in comparison to the earlier statements?
  • There are also other books in Islam. This is the book, but how do the others influence thinking?

How can you be a good practitioner of the religion and truly believe while also modernizing some of the ideas in here, or reconciling the contradictions?

Any changes today in religious books means God was wrong.

Modern Christianity reconciling writings to today's context.

Secular Jewish - people who are Jewish by culture. Room for interpretation on supernatural events.

Qur'an is much more about political actions than supernatural events. It's mostly about political, social and how to be a "good person". Aside from the descriptions of Heaven and Hell, etc, there's not much about supernatural events.

• The Night Journey?
• How much of this is metaphoric? How much of these beliefs are metaphorical rather than literal?

Idea of Paradise is pretty plain: a garden with clean water streams, free food, and attractive virgins. It's an easy thing to imagine, it's not esoteric or abstract, and seems to play to the rules of reality. There's no mention of more complex wishes or benefit.

• When you die, you have to wait for when Judgement Day comes, and not go directly to Heaven or Hell. This seems like a pretty big misinterpretation, or maybe there's more to it.
• Christian books don't mention heaven, but once we die we just have to wait until the Final Judgement day to come. Large scale conspiracies.
• "Why is burial so important? If you have to wait around until Judgement day, you might want to keep everything intact."

Tangent: "Cryonics is a religion." You have to wait until the prophet comes and un-melts you. Uploading your brain to a computer is religion for computing people. Need to believe in something. Life simulated.

Secular people who grew up religious might not believe in God, but part of them wants to believe in something beyond this life. The idea of total annihilation is very difficult to grapple with.

• The "simulation" idea. It's not a useful belief, because there's nothing you can do about it. There's no hole - it might very much be possible.

Tangent: "Psychedelics revelations"

• Psychedelics and extension of time, feeling outside of time - living months and coming back to realize it's the same day. People who do them find these stories more interesting.
• Moises and use of drugs, alludes to some consumption of psychedelics.
• Psychedelics being a part of spiritual life.
  • When asked about the experience of revelation Muhammad reported,
    • "sometimes it is revealed like the ringing of a bell. This form of inspiration is the hardest of them all and then it passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."[4]:43
    • This doesn't go against the ideas of the religion.

Definitions of being good.

• At the beginning of the book a good person worships God, believes in Judgement Day and follows dictates of good conduct. Gives away wealth, helps orphans and needy, keep up prayers, steadfast in adversity, etc.
• Punishment for crimes and forgiveness. Very similar to the code of Hamurabi.
  • If you kill a free man, you must be killed, etc.
  • If you pardon someone for wronging you, and they ask for mercy, they can be forgiven for basically anything.
• The Qur'an's focus on mercy
  • Significance of the opening of each Sura: In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.
  • Optimizing for mercy by following Quran's principles. There's a fine line between trying to control fate and trusting the unvierse/God etc.
    • There are events both good and bad that are totally not in our control. But a secular way of thinking it about it is almost like an algorithm: make you mindful of why things are happening.
  • "Fully repenting" because you understand what's really wrong.
• Ancient Jewish idea that if everything is going wrong it is because God is displeased with humanity.
• Contrasting of polytheistic religions comparing natural context:
  • Indus Valley vs Nile River.
  • Gods of Indus Valley were much more wrathful and mean: the indus valley floods a lot more, and is very unpredictable.
  • Nile is fairly predictable, and therefore they believed that God is happy/peaceful with humanity.
  • Deities punish humans with floods, or reward them with crops. Omnipotent being seeing what you do may prevent you from acting bad. Useful concept for making a society more cohesive.
  • [[Sapiens - Yuval Harari]] style cohesive systems. Even it was harsh, it was functional and made people's lives better to a certain extent.
  • Infer from what you see: if you're seeing a lot of things going wrong in your life, you should ask yourself what you're doing wrong with your life and try to fix it.

The Qur'an also talks about female infanticide, orphans, slaves, etc.

Islam starts to spread beyond boundaries and other regions push back.

• God is giving the prescription to Muslims to fight for the region. The book stops preaching peace and encourages fighting for the religion.
  • Fight in God’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: God does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there.
    • There is no definition of what persecution is.
    • Muslims were a minority and killed for their religion, this could be telling the population to defend yourself until you need to and don't go overboard.
    • Politicizing Islam: Violence in Qur'an was for attack or defense? How much violence can be justified through the Qur'an?
  • If they do fight you, kill them—this is what such disbelievers deserve— but if they stop, then God is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to God. If they cease hostilities, there can be no [further] hostility, except towards aggressors.
  • Fighting is ordained for you, though you dislike it. You may dislike something although it is good for you, or like something although it is bad for you: God knows and you do not.’
    • Could be true for more than just God, and can be applied to life itself. What you think you like could be bad for you and vice versa.
    • Feeds into another section about "Intoxicants and gambling:"
  • They will not stop fighting you [believers] until they make you revoke your faith, if they can. If any of you revoke your faith and die as disbelievers, your deeds will come to nothing in this world and the Hereafter, and you will be inhabitants of the Fire, there to remain. But those who have believed, migrated, and striven for God’s cause, it is they who can look forward to God’s mercy: God is most forgiving and merciful.
    • It seems like it's saying "they will never stop fighting you, and if they're fighting you to kill them". If you read it in an aggressive way, it suggests that any disbelievers are trying to kill you.
    • The difference between reading this in a modern context, vs an ancient context.
    • It's not a critique of people, but simply trying to read the book and understand how it can be interpreted in different parts of the world. This is one of the most politicized parts of the book. How can you take it out of the political landscape that it was written in?

How do you bring God's prescription from 620 AD to the modern era?

• There's over a billion Muslims in the world, and not everyone is trying to exercise the book line for line.
• How do you modernize it and take your duties into a world so differently complicated from the world before?
• God's prescriptions are made in a way you can't be peaceful with non believers. You have to fight for religion or you go to hell.
  • How much of this is metaphorical and how much of it is literal?
  • It makes it easier to see how it can spread in just a decade: if you have a group of people believing that you have to fight for your beliefs or you go to hell, vs a group of polytheists who don't have that same level of [[motivation]], it's obvious who's beliefs will "win"

Intoxicants and gambling:

• The sin is greater than the benefit.
• There is a conflict on what counts as an intoxicant. Marijuana and tobacco were not considered intoxicants at the time.
• Alcohol seems to be the only thing that they all agree on. Some only consider Date wine and honey wine as intoxicants.
• Changing thoughts on alcohol. How much of this is just a translation or just an interpretation of what an intoxicant counts as? And how much of this is under the scholar's agenda?
• How much of this is cultural? Some Hindus in India don't drink, possible because the country was ruled by Muslims for a long time, and therefore it became a cultural rule, rather than a religious one.

Women's place in the religion:

• Your wives are [like] your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like, and send [something good] ahead for yourselves.
  • Apparently there was a belief in Arabia at the time that certain sexual positions were impure, but the Qur’an is saying you can “enter your wives however you please."
  • "Points out the humor: Why would God care about that? Interesting comments in the footnotes about sex and Jesus."
• If any of your women commit a lewd act, call four witnesses from among you, then, if they testify to their guilt, keep the women at home until death comes to them or until God shows them another way. If two men commit a lewd act, punish them both; if they repent and mend their ways, leave them alone—God is always ready to accept repentance, He is full of mercy
  • Prescriptions for lewd acts. What is a "lewd" act?
  • Muslim homophobia? Doesn't say how you should punish them. The only way out is to repent and beg for mercy.
    • Is this a good way to appeal to people of other [[religion]]s?
    • Shockingly forgiving to men in comparison to women.
  • "Until death comes"? You really have to read between the lines to understand what this mean.
  • Stoning in fundamentalist societies. Condemning and offering mercy as a converting tool.

Eating and Forbidden foods:

• Mostly to avoid illness.
• Best practices to kill an animal for food.
• A lot of it is very logical: cortisol releases when strangling an animal, decaying animal flesh, etc.
• You are forbidden to eat carrion; blood; pig’s meat; any animal over which any name other than God’s has been invoked; any animal strangled, or victim of a violent blow or a fall, or gored or savaged by a beast of prey, unless you still slaughter it [in the correct manner]; or anything sacrificed on idolatrous altars. You are also forbidden to allot shares [of meat] by drawing marked arrows—a heinous practice!

Fighting:

• Prepare whatever forces you [believers] can muster, including warhorses, so that you frighten off God’s enemies and yours, and warn others unknown to you but known to God. Whatever you give in God’s cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. But if they incline towards peace, you [Prophet] must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.
  • "The more you give fighting for the religion, the more you will get back"
• When the [four] forbidden months are over, wherever you encounter the idolaters, kill them, seize them, besiege them, wait for them at every lookout post; but if they repent, maintain the prayer, and pay the prescribed alms, let them go on their way, for God is most forgiving and merciful.
  • This could be why it spread so quickly: you were either going to be hunted down and killed, or you could join the religion.
  • Almost as if it's designed to be spread as quickly, efficiently and effectively as possible.
• We did not wrong them; they wronged themselves. Their gods, which they called on beside God, were no use to them when what your Lord had ordained came about; they only increased their ruin.
  • Absolution of guilt in participating in the fight.
  • "You are not doing anything wrong, they did the wrong thing and you are just carrying out God's will."
• Start of the separation from Christianity and Judaism. (more so Christianity)
  • Underlining Son of Mary vs Son of God.
  • People of the Book, do not go to excess in your [[religion]], and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’—stop [this], that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
    • "Christians are wrong."
• Adultery:
  • Strike the adulteress and the adulterer one hundred times. Do not let compassion for them keep you from carrying out God’s law—if you believe in God and the Last Day—and ensure that a group of believers witnesses the punishment. The adulterer is only [fit] to marry an adulteress or an idolatress, and the adulteress is only [fit] to marry an adulterer or an idolater: such behaviour is forbidden to believers.
  • What is considered adultery and what is not?
  • You have to cast "adulterers" out even if it is your children. They are unfit to marry any other believers for life: only allowed to marry other "adulterers".
  • "Integrity of the religion."
• And tell believing women that they should lower their eyes, guard their private parts, and not display their charms beyond what [it is acceptable] to reveal; they should draw their coverings over their necklines and not reveal their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their womenfolk, their slaves, such men as attend them who have no desire, or children who are not yet aware of women’s nakedness; they should not stamp their feet so as to draw attention to any hidden charms.
• It was not clear what it is acceptable for a woman to reveal even in Arabic language. Preventing sexual attraction. Dancing and sexual desires. Don't go beyond ordinary behaviors. Elderly women allowed to show more than younger because of lower attraction. In case of rape, it is suggested that the fault falls on the woman. Most of practices, especially about woman covering themselves, come from the edicts and not the Quran.

Prescriptions for women covering their bodies.

• And tell believing women that they should lower their eyes, guard their private parts, and not display their charms beyond what [it is acceptable] to reveal; they should draw their coverings over their necklines and not reveal their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their womenfolk, their slaves, such men as attend them who have no desire, or children who are not yet aware of women’s nakedness; they should not stamp their feet so as to draw attention to any hidden charms.
• What is acceptable to reveal? It was not clear what it is acceptable for a woman to reveal even in Arabic language.
• How much of this can be interpreted differently?
• This is a prescription to preventing sexual attraction.
  • Dancing and sexual desires could be an interpretation.
  • Don't go "beyond ordinary behaviors".
• Hadith: what's not part of the revelations, but "prophetic tradition".
  • Intersection between culture and time that they lived in along with the religion. Don't go beyond the normal, which differs from 1950 to 2020, etc. Or it could be beyond only what was good at the time.
  • "You could be compliant with the Qur'an regardless of your interpretation."
  • Elderly women allowed to show more than younger because of lower attraction. You have to hide your attractiveness, it doesn't say "why", but it is very subjecting of women.
• Considers women as inferior, need to hide themselves and be subservient to their husbands. In case of rape, it is suggested that the fault falls on the woman.
• Most of practices, especially about woman covering themselves, come from the edicts and not the Qur'an.

Starts to get repetitive around here.

In the Quran are mentioned 4 prayer times, not 5. Maybe the fifth comes from the Hadith?

• So celebrate God’s glory in the evening, in the morning— praise is due to Him in the heavens and the earth—in the late afternoon, and at midday.
• "Call to prayers"

The burden of proof is on everyone else except for Mohammed, God or Islam.

• You [Prophet] are not, by [receiving] God’s grace, a madman: you will have a never-ending reward— truly you have a strong character— and soon you will see, as will they, which of you is afflicted with madness. Your Lord knows best who strays from His path and who is rightly guided.
• So I swear by what you can see and by what you cannot see: this [Qur’an] is the word [spoken by] an honoured messenger, not the words of a poet—how little you believe!— nor the words of a soothsayer–how little you reflect! This [Qur’an] is a message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds: if [the Prophet] had attributed some fabrication to Us, We would certainly have seized his right hand and cut off his lifeblood, and none of you could have defended him.
  • "The prophet is not crazy, these are the words of God and not a poet. It is a perfect recitation, if he said anything wrong, God would have reached down and cut off his blood."
  • It becomes very airtight, but also harder to interpret. It's not like a constitution that can be amended as the times change.
  • Was nobody thinking about what it meant for the [[religion]] in the future?
• In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy Say, ‘He is God the One, God the eternal. He begot no one nor was He begotten. No one is comparable to Him.
  • This is a good summary, and one of the most repeated and discussed themes in the entire book.
• "Qur'an gets boring at times, describing paradise repeatedly and saying believers will go to heaven, non believers to hell. It was intended to be recited, not written and read."